Monday, January 31, 2011

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Last Call

Hello all,

this is the last call for posting messages to the "Around Simulation II" topic! And our valuable respondents, if they want, have the chance to post some kind of final statement.

Later the greetings!

Pier Luigi
--
Pier Luigi Capucci
e-mail: plc@noemalab.org
web: http://www.noemalab.org/plc/plc.html
skype: plcapucci

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathyand Subjective Experience

Quoting Jennifer:
[Simon wrote:]
> "To claim we do have the capacity to simulate things is to assume we have
> knowledge of them we most likely do not possess. This would seem
> arrogant in the extreme. ..."

Jennifer replies:

> I do not think it is arrogant dogma, when it seems that the Universe might
> indeed be a quantum computer, it would mean, that we would need to
> take our own
> first person experiences seriously. Something that Chalmers, Clark,
> Varela, and
> all, are fighting for. It is problematic of science to not take first
person
> methods seriously. Perhaps it is why artists are so often involved in
these
> discussions.

It would be a difficult and a hard problem to accurate and reliably simulate
things
[senses, mind, etc.] at this point in time. Progress in this area is
exponential and not
linear. In this instance Simon more accurate than wrong. However, I was
taken aback by
Simon's comment which suggests artists' works interested in mind simulation
is not
scientific. Contrarily it may indeed be stemming from critical inquiry,
based on the
exponentiality of technological futures. It is vastly necessary and
important to
question our reference material and to be skeptical of our research as we
explore
possibilities for artistic expression. But suggesting is it arrogant as a
fait accompli
makes me wonder if it is an ideological interpretation of simulation,
presently and/or
its future potential.

Jennifer, Clark is a fine example of someone who ardently looks for
scientific
credibility. I would also put Anders Sandberg, Ben Goertzel, Robert Freitas,
Randal
Koene, Suzanne Gildert and others in this category. As for artists in the
area of mind
transfer and/or copying, I cannot speak for others, but my research is
deeply linked to
scientific realism and historical efforts by McCulloch, Von Foerster,
Minsky, etc. alert
us to continue exploring and investigation possibilities for brain-computer
interaction.
And this area continues to develop and the domain of simulation is an
integral aspect of
where mind may be headed when we consider computational simulations.

Again, we are not there yet, and to assume so would be arrogant. But to
limit ourselves
by today's technologies and scientific reasoning would be parochial.

All my best,
Natasha

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Sunday, January 30, 2011

[Yasmin_discussions] Moderator: Please delete first post and use 2nd one! Thank you!

Hi Moderator!

I sent two messages to the list, but the first one has a typo in it
so please use the second one.  The typo is in the first sentence of my
reply after I quote Simon and then Jennfer and I write "I ..." 
instead of "It ..."

In short, I sent two posts today and the first one has the typo and
the second one does not.  Please use the second one.

I am terribly sorry to give you this added work!  I'm in transit
traveling and could not recall the message myself but since you read
all messages, i hope it is not too much trouble for you.

All my best,

Natasha

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathy and Subjective Experience

Quoting "Jennifer Kanary Nikolov\(a\)" <jenniferkanary@yahoo.com>:

Simon wrote:

> "To claim we do have the capacity to simulate things is to assume we have
> knowledge of them we most likely do not possess. This would seem 
> arrogant in the
> extreme. Further to this, a simulation is only a knowledge
> modelling  activity.
> Even where we do have enough information about something to build 
> what seems to
> be a useful and functional simulation it does not mean we have made 
> an accurate
> copy of something. It is only as accurate as we are able to test its accuracy
> and that testing is constrained by what we know. Even the best 
> simulations are
> likely to be incomplete or even erroneous in their conception. To assume
> otherwise is to consider oneself to have complete and irrefutable 
> knowledge of
> something. That does not seem like good (sceptical) science or philosophy. It
> starts to sound like arrogant dogma."

Jennifer replies:

> I do not think it is arrogant dogma, when it seems that the Universe might
> indeed be a quantum computer, it would mean, that we would need to 
> take our own
> first person experiences seriously. Something that Chalmers, Clark, 
> Varela, and
> all, are fighting for. It is problematic of science to not take first person
> methods seriously. Perhaps it is why artists are so often involved in these
> discussions.

It would be a difficult and a hard problem to accurate and reliably
simulate things
[senses, mind, etc.] at this point in time.  Progress in this area is
exponential and not
linear.  In this instance Simon more accurate than wrong.  However, I
was taken aback by
Simon's comment which suggests artists' works interested in mind
simulation is not
scientific. Contrarily it may indeed be stemming from critical
inquiry, based on the
exponentiality of technological futures.  It is vastly necessary and
important to
question our reference  material and to be skeptical of our research
as we explore
possibilities for artistic expression.  But suggesting is it arrogant
as a fait accompli
makes me wonder if it is an ideological interpretation of simulation,
presently and/or
its future potential.

Jennifer, Clark is a fine example of someone who ardently looks for scientific
credibility. I would also put Anders Sandberg, Ben Goertzel, Robert
Freitas, Randal
Koene, Suzanne Gildert and others in this category.  As for artists in
the area of mind
transfer and/or copying, I cannot speak for others, but my research is
deeply linked to
scientific realism and historical efforts by McCulloch, Von Foerster,
Minsky, etc. alert
us to continue exploring and investigation possibilities for
brain-computer interaction.
And this area continues to develop and the domain of simulation is an
integral aspect of
where mind may be headed when we consider computational simulations.

Again, we are not there yet, and to assume so would be arrogant. But
to limit ourselves
by today's technologies and scientific reasoning would be parochial.

All my best,
Natasha

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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathy and Subjective Experience

Quoting "Jennifer Kanary Nikolov\(a\)" <jenniferkanary@yahoo.com>:

Simon wrote:

> "To claim we do have the capacity to simulate things is to assume we have
> knowledge of them we most likely do not possess. This would seem
> arrogant in the extreme. Further to this, a simulation is only a
> knowledge >modeling activity.
> Even where we do have enough information about something to build
> what seems to
> be a useful and functional simulation it does not mean we have made
> an accurate
> copy of something. It is only as accurate as we are able to test its accuracy
> and that testing is constrained by what we know. Even the best
> simulations are
> likely to be incomplete or even erroneous in their conception. To assume
> otherwise is to consider oneself to have complete and irrefutable
> knowledge of
> something. That does not seem like good (sceptical) science or philosophy. It
> starts to sound like arrogant dogma."

Jennifer replies:

> I do not think it is arrogant dogma, when it seems that the Universe might
> indeed be a quantum computer, it would mean, that we would need to
> take our own
> first person experiences seriously. Something that Chalmers, Clark,
> Varela, and
> all, are fighting for. It is problematic of science to not take first person
> methods seriously. Perhaps it is why artists are so often involved in these
> discussions.

I would be a difficult and a hard problem to accurate and reliably
simulate things [senses, mind, etc.] at this point in time. Progress
in this area is exponential and not linear. In this instance Simon
more accurate than wrong. However, I was taken aback by Simon's
comment which suggests artists' works interested in mind simulation is
not scientific. Contrarily it may indeed be stemming from critical
inquiry, based on the exponentiality of technological futures. It is
vastly necessary and important to question our reference material and
to be skeptical of our research as we explore possibilities for
artistic expression. But suggesting is it arrogant as a fait accompli
makes me wonder if it is an ideological interpretation of simulation,
presently and/or its future potential.

Jennifer, Clark is a fine example of someone who ardently looks for
scientific credibility. I would also put Anders Sandberg, Ben
Goertzel, Robert Freitas, Randal Koene, Suzanne Gildert and others in
this category. As for artists in the area of mind transfer and/or
copying, I cannot speak for others, but my research is deeply linked
to scientific realism and historical efforts by McCulloch, Von
Foerster, Minsky, etc. alert us to continue exploring and
investigation possibilities for brain-computer interaction. And this
area continues to develop and the domain of simulation is an integral
aspect of where mind may be headed when we consider computational
simulations.

Again, we are not there yet, and to assume so would be arrogant. But
to limit ourselves by today's technologies and scientific reasoning
would be parochial.

All my best,
Natasha


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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathyand Subjective Experience

"When will the Internet become aware of itself."
The internet is not external to our body it is an extension of our nervous
system . (Marshall McLuhan)...

"We shape our tools," he said, "and then our tools shape us." Technology,
according to McLuhan, is an extension of our own natural faculties. Just as
a knife is an extension of the hand, and the wheel an extension of the leg,
writing is an extension of speech and of memory. In this general metaphor,
automobiles become extensions of our personal bodies, and the city an
extension of our collective skin. Electronic communication is an extension
of our nervous system, just as computers are extensions of our brains. Once
extended, however, these technologies are "amputated." They exist as
external and independent objects, though we remain dependent upon them.
) http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=10226(

-----Original Message-----
From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
[mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Jennifer
Kanary Nikolov(a)
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:20 PM
To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
Empathyand Subjective Experience

Dear Natasha,

You write:

"Empathy may be the most needed and also the most difficult experiential
behavior to obtain. To have empathy an agent needs to understand the
thoughts, feelings and state of another agent/person. To have empathy then,
the agent would also have to have "personhood." So, what is personhood if
it is not to be alive, self-awareness, and able to make decisions. How can
something make decisions if it is not alive and self-aware? Certainly AI
makes decisions and interacts with its environment, but not alive. So the
issue is what makes AI alive?"

Here I would like to refer to my reaction to Simon (not sure in which order
my posts will appear), containing the question by Sejnowski "When will the
Internet become aware of itself." and the reference to the evolution of the
internet as resembling bio-evolution.

I often wonder if my computer is empathic with my moods because it is
connected to the internet. In a sense mimicking my moods. It seems all too
often, when I am angry, it refuses to communicate, when I calm down, it
works again. When nothing else changed but my emotion in time. Is my
computer the 'body part' of the internet that is its 'mind'?

How does the internet make decisions, and what are the senses of the
internet?

I remember well, Roger Malina's question posed to me at Trondheim's Making
Reality Really Real conference, if I believed that computers also know
Madness.
My intuition says that they do...Madness, we might say, is when the senses
are flooded and one cannot filter anything out anymore, as everything seems
equally important and connected. What if madness is the beginning, from
where the filters, our senses, start to evolve...starting to make us alive?

Where is the madness in the Internet? If it is aware or might become aware,
how does the internet make decisions, and what are the senses of the
internet?
Perhaps then, we will find simulation of subjective experience and empathy.
Perhaps it is already there.


Jennifer
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Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathyand Subjective Experience

Dera Natasha, dear Yasmin,

the issue of what makes AI alive is a great question.

In Unified Theories of Cognition, Allen Newell defines intelligence as: the degree to which a system approximates a knowledge-level system.
Perfect intelligence is defined as the ability to bring all the knowledge a system has at its disposal to bear in the solution of a problem (which is synonymous with goal achievement).

A natural question to ask about symbols and representation is what is a symbol? Allen Newell considered this question in Unified Theories of Cognition. He differentiated between symbols (the phenomena in the abstract) and tokens (their physical instantiations). Tokens "stood for" some larger concept.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/cogarch0/common/theory.html

... also scientist discover in this elegant model by Garrett Lisi may at last reveal the link between gravity and the other fundamental forces of nature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xHw9zcCvRQ

As expert and deep research of AI Structured Activities', goals keeper for knowledge achievement, develops vertically. Within this, single 'Activities' expanding horizontally.

In the theory of Social Semantic Search Engine Competition designed under knowledge symbolism competitiveness shape in motion change color but:

Shapes (Member) shown in the same color are similar.
Shapes (Member) shown in the same shape and different color are similar.

fori suggest to stream the following video in large option, it is 30 minutes video but more easy for you to understand how AI start to be alive with a simulator, or better say with a case history that include many aspect in the today competition.
http://gallery.me.com/apollo29#100164

simulator and prototype: http://www.stargossip.gr/newlifes/
dokuviki: http://www.stargossip.gr/dokuwiki/doku.php


Paolo

On Jan 28, 2011, at 8:20 PM, Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a) wrote:

> Dear Natasha,
>
> You write:
>
> "Empathy may be the most needed and also the most difficult experiential
> behavior to obtain. To have empathy an agent needs to understand the thoughts,
> feelings and state of another agent/person. To have empathy then, the agent
> would also have to have "personhood." So, what is personhood if it is not to be
> alive, self-awareness, and able to make decisions. How can something make
> decisions if it is not alive and self-aware? Certainly AI makes decisions and
> interacts with its environment, but not alive. So the issue is what makes AI
> alive?"
>
> Here I would like to refer to my reaction to Simon (not sure in which order my
> posts will appear), containing the question by Sejnowski "When will the Internet
> become aware of itself." and the reference to the evolution of the internet as
> resembling bio-evolution.
>
> I often wonder if my computer is empathic with my moods because it is connected
> to the internet. In a sense mimicking my moods. It seems all too often, when I
> am angry, it refuses to communicate, when I calm down, it works again. When
> nothing else changed but my emotion in time. Is my computer the 'body part' of
> the internet that is its 'mind'?
>
> How does the internet make decisions, and what are the senses of the internet?
>
> I remember well, Roger Malina's question posed to me at Trondheim's Making
> Reality Really Real conference, if I believed that computers also know Madness.
> My intuition says that they do...Madness, we might say, is when the senses are
> flooded and one cannot filter anything out anymore, as everything seems equally
> important and connected. What if madness is the beginning, from where the
> filters, our senses, start to evolve...starting to make us alive?
>
> Where is the madness in the Internet? If it is aware or might become aware, how
> does the internet make decisions, and what are the senses of the internet?
> Perhaps then, we will find simulation of subjective experience and empathy.
> Perhaps it is already there.
>
>
> Jennifer
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
>
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
>
> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.



Paolo Pomponi

SCi-Fi Coach for Social Media Conversation & Syndication. Private Think Tank

Vote @tituspomponius for www.newlifes.com for the 2011 Awards for #socialmedia
Vote here: http://shortyawards.com/tituspomponius

Website

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Blog

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Friday, January 28, 2011

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Please unsuscribe, thanks

Hello for all from Tunisia!!Sorry for my absence in your very interessant discussion!I wanted to notice that the feeling of freedom cannot be simulated!:)Tunisia is free now from censuring, from dictator!!but not from dictature until now!!We live now a very historical change, and i hope that we can really feel the freedom!!!Thanks a lotWafa










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> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 12:31:05 +0100
> From: raphaelcuir@free.fr
> To: yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Please unsuscribe, thanks
>
>
>
>
> On 27/01/11 09:26, "[NAME]" <[ADDRESS]> wro:
>
> > Send Yasmin_discussions mailing list submissions to
> > yasmin_discsions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> > or, via eil, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > yasmin_discussions-reest@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at yasmin_discussions-owner@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject li so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Yasmin_discussiondigest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Around Simulation II -imulating Empathy and Subjective
> > Experience (Avi Rosen)
> > 2. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathyand Subjective
> > Experience (Natasha Vita-More)
> > 3. Re: Around Simulation II - SimulatedSenses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (V?tor Reia-Baptista)
> > 4. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (xDxD.vs.xDxD)
> > 5. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (xDxD.vs.xDxD)
> > 6. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathy and Subjective
> > Experience (xDxD.vs.xDxD)
> > 7. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (Avi Rosen)
> > 8. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (Luigi Pagliarini)
> > 9. Re: Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 102, Issue 1 (Ziva Ljubec)
> > 10. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathy and Subjective
> > Experience (Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida)
> > 11. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida)
> > 12. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulating Emathyand Subjective
> > Experience (Joshua Madara)
> > 13. Some other contributes to the Discussions Around Simulation
> > II (V?tor Reia-Baptista)
> > 14. Re: Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses and the
> > Un-Simulatable (Luigi Pagliarini)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 12:38:56 +0200
> > From: "Avi Rosen" <avi@siglab.technion.ac.il>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
> > Empathy and Subjective Experience
> > To: "'YASMIN DISCUSSIONS'" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <01f401cbbbb2$e718dc10$b54a9430$@siglab.technion.ac.il>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > The Artifact turned to be Responsive. the passive Marcel Duchamp's
> > readymade "La Fontaine" evolved to La iFontaine, -
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc6xjKQ0mkI
> > an interactive ready made with awareness and empathy to users and other
> > linked objects. Symbiosis of Artifact and Art consumer in cybernetic
> > holistic rhizome.
> > The surfer (art consumer) implementing digital gadgets is witnessing Pierre
> > Teilhard de Chardin's "noosphere", the "sphere of human thought" as it
> > grows towards a greater integration and unification, culminating in the
> > 'Omega Point'- the maximum level of complexity and consciousness to which
> > the universe seems to be evolving.
> > Avi.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of Jennifer
> > Kanary Nikolov(a)
> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 7:44 PM
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating Empathy
> > and Subjective Experience
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > In the meantime, I apologise if my own posts have actually contributed to
> > the rise to confusion :) Here is a post about the simulation of subjective
> > experience. Its in addition to my previous posts.
> >
> > Like I stated before, I'm interested in the Simulation of Empathy, well
> > known in humans, but considered impossible in computers (for AI purposes).
> > Empathy being the mental simulation of the experience of the other. When we
> > know how our own empathy systems work, and what role our own senses play in
> > this, we might learn more about how this could be evoked in digital systems,
> > AI and Robotics. This is strongly related to the theory of mirror neurons
> > (it is also where we left off at the last discussion with Derrick De
> > Kerckhoves contribution). I am interested in how artists knowledge about how
> > to evoke subjective experiences in humans could contribute to our
> > understanding as to how to evoke such experiences in AI systems and
> > robotics. I'm interested in the role art experiences play in evoking
> > empathy, how it jiggles our neurons and is there a form of programmability
> > to this?
> >
> >
> > For one to experience empathy, to have a sense as to what the other is
> > feeling, one must have an idea or awareness that there is an other and one
> > must have an inner archive of subjective experiences and believe that the
> > other feels. I use the word subjective experience to separate the subjective
> > aspect of a sensation, a signal of the sense organ, and its emotional
> > affect. I experience a signal, I experience the signal as pain, I experience
> > fear. A digital system can sense the signal, but as far as we know, does not
> > have a sensation about this signal, not does it compare it to our signals.
> >
> > Some believe that it is impossible for AI to feel, subjective experience is
> > ambiguous and ambiguity causes error in a computers calculations. Some
> > believe that subjective experience comes from a heart and soul, and that
> > computers do not have a soul and thus can never experience subjectivity. As
> > an artist interested in scientific speculations I wonder how to change our
> > perspective in this thinking. This changes dramatically when scientific
> > speculations rise like The Universe is a Quantum Computer. In such a world
> > Simulation is Life. We are Avatars creating Avatars. We are Worlds creating
> > Worlds. The Simulated Simulate in an ongoing cycle of many layers. It gives
> > a whole new meaning to concepts of God as a Creator, God residing in All of
> > us, God made man in his own image. It is a very cybernetic approach, that
> > everything is computed.
> >
> > For me Simulation is Computation, be it by my brain, by a digital or
> > analogue or quantum computer. I'm interested in how technology and art are
> > used as a tools of empathy. I am interested in how subjective experience is
> > generated by all technologies. I'm interested in how qbits might solve the
> > issue of ambiguation causing error in computations of classical computers.
> >
> > Our senses play a big role in how we empathise. We sense muscles tensions
> > in the faces of others, we learn to 'read' such faces and make conclusions
> > about how the other is feeling, we compare it to how we feel when our
> > muscles are like that. In our current society we do not take several of our
> > senses seriously. We need to focus on how our all our senses can be
> > simulated with digital computers and how the data, the incoming signals of
> > sensors interfere and affect interpretation.
> >
> >
> > How our senses dance a dance of signals that triggers our neurons. If we
> > know how it is evoked in brains with the use of technology, we will learn
> > more about how to evoke it in computers. In particular from the view that we
> > are all jiggling atoms ;) How to make my Avatar/Robot feel? How to put the
> > Gaia in the world of my Avatar/Robot?
> >
> >
> > Jennifer
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
> > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
> > the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> > password in the fields found further down the page.
> >
> > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your
> > e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> > unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> >
> > HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> > Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:20:51 -0600
> > From: "Natasha Vita-More" <natasha@natasha.cc>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
> > Empathyand Subjective Experience
> > To: "'YASMIN DISCUSSIONS'" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <AA0B9420EA75492B9DE739305F6AAF4E@DFC68LF1>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Hi Jennifer,
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> >> In the meantime, I apologies if my own posts have actually contributed to
> > the rise to
> >> confusion :) Here is a post about the simulation of subjective experience.
> > Its in
> >> addition to my previous posts.
> >
> > You are not confusing things Jennifer. I think it is how we want to talk
> > about simulation and your interest appears to be of simulation as having
> > potential in computational systems, which is timely, although I'm not a
> > religious person so I don't see it pertainint to God, but I do see it as
> > pertaining to we are all part of an evolving cybernetics.
> >
> >> Like I stated before, I'm interested in the Simulation of Empathy, well
> > known in humans,
> >> but considered impossible in computers (for AI purposes). Empathy being the
> > mental
> >> simulation of the experience of the other.
> >
> > Empathy may be the most needed and also the most difficult experiential
> > behavior to obtain. To have empathy an agent needs to understand the
> > thoughts, feelings and state of another agent/person. To have empathy then,
> > the agent would also have to have "personhood." So, what is personhood if
> > it is not to be alive, self-awareness, and able to make decisions. How can
> > something make decisions if it is not alive and self-aware? Certainly AI
> > makes decisions and interacts with its environment, but not alive. So the
> > issue is what makes AI alive?
> >
> >> Some believe that it is impossible for AI to feel, subjective experience is
> > ambiguous and
> >> ambiguity causes error in a computers calculations. Some believe that
> > subjective experience
> >> comes from a heart and soul, and that computers do not have a soul and thus
> > can never
> >> experience subjectivity.
> >
> > AI is narrow. "Strong AI" is where we would have to begin, and which takes
> > us to the baby steps of A[G]I (i.e., artificial general intelligence,
> > hereinafter "AGI"), which is where AI was originally headed before its
> > winter (inability to achieve its original directive in producing human level
> > intelligence). AGI offers the potential for being self-aware and able to
> > make decisions based on "experience". Through its experience in its
> > learning, it could obtain personhood at the juncture where the idea of life
> > and death becomes redefined based on semi and non-biological or synthetic
> > systems which develop self-awareness and may want rights, similar to the
> > rights of humans.
> >
> > With all this said, the issue of empathy could be obtainable by AGIs. But I
> > have to return to my original post on this one, if I may. A brain that is
> > transferable or copied onto a computational system, would also transfer or
> > copy its mind (in the material sense) and that mind would contain the
> > feelings, emotions, and sensorial memory of the biological person). If the
> > AGI could relate to this, it would also become familiar and experience the
> > feelings, emotions and sensory memory of the human. So the merging of
> > humans and technology becomes even more blurred and the AGI would learn
> > empathy through its own experiential behavior.
> >
> > All my best,
> > Natasha
> >
> > Natasha Vita-More
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 16:47:32 +0000
> > From: V?tor Reia-Baptista <vreia@ualg.pt>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II -
> > SimulatedSenses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>,
> > Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>
> > Cc: 'YASMIN DISCUSSIONS' <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <20110124164732.26134anq4rnqmiio@wmail.ualg.pt>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
> > format="flowed"
> >
> > Hi Natasha.
> > Good question, why not return to Plato? (to Jesus I don't know, since
> > a lot of people are returning to him weekly in diffrent churches). We
> > probably shoud do that, the aspect that speaks in favor of Baudrillard
> > is the media awareness thing, or media literacy as some of us call it,
> > which turns every single piece of information into different pieces of
> > representation, whether we are speaking of so called reality
> > representations (journalism; documentary; science reports...) or of
> > fictional representations. But Plato is still a very good choice.
> > V?tor
> >
> > Citando Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>:
> >
> >> Why return to Baudrillard's interpretation of simulation? Why not return to
> >> Plato? Why not return to Jesus? Or earlier notions of symbols and
> >> interpretations of the early homo sapiens sapiens and cave paintings, where
> >> the image represented an deeply physiological manifestation of how the image
> >> could alter perceptions of the past and present, and form an attempt to
> >> predestine the future?
> >>
> >> These all have historical import and have influenced how individuals and
> >> society feel and think about the world around us, while animating signs and
> >> interpreting visual associations and tokens of social patterns.
> >>
> >> The world has become so deeply and profoundly influenced by the obvious and
> >> the silent signs that we have, in fact and in part, become psychologically
> >> confused by what is true meaning and what is hyped, or if the hyped has
> >> become the truth. On this level, it seems that one large environmental spill
> >> is simulacra that is nondestructable and potentially nonaesthetic.
> >>
> >> But even if we cherish Baudrillard's interpretation of simulacra, rather
> >> than Philip K. Dick's, Baudrillard contends that simulation, his suggested
> >> fourth stage it is no more than a reflection. Is this postmodern view
> >> correct? Yes, probably if it is sequestered to the world of postmodernist
> >> perspectives. Yes, it has great value framed as such.
> >>
> >> Outside this philosophical framing is a different understanding of
> >> simulation. One that is more integrated with the "The Matrix", and not "The
> >> Truman Show" (which is merely an intended, outright falsifying of the real
> >> is developing a pretense). In an interview, Baudrillard interprets the
> >> significance of the "The Matrix"
> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20080113012028/http://www.empyree.org/divers/Matr
> >> ix-Baudrillard_english.html as relative to his vision of simulacra outside
> >> the hypermodern meaning which ties more neatly into the computational mode
> >> or reality.
> >>
> >> All my best,
> >> Natasha
> >>
> >>
> >> Natasha Vita-More
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >> [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of V?tor
> >> Reia-Baptista
> >> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 5:07 AM
> >> To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> >> Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - SimulatedSenses and
> >> the Un-Simulatable
> >>
> >> Hi.
> >> I also have some problems following this discussion, since it seems to me
> >> (as Roger says) that there is some confusion between simulation and
> >> representation. There are many texts written about this but Baudrillard's
> >> Simulacres et simulation can be a good start for those that feel that need
> >> of clarification.
> >> V?tor
> >>
> >> Citando roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>:
> >>
> >>> annick
> >>>
> >>> I agree with you that in order for this discussion not to be
> >>> hopelessly confused and generalising we need to distinguich between
> >> "simulating"
> >>> which needs be seen in the context of digital simulation, and
> >>> representation (such as the Brughel paintings and the photos that pier
> >>> luigi points to)
> >>>
> >>> here is the wikipaedia statement on the meaning of the word simulation
> >>> in the context of computer and systems sciences:
> >>>
> >>> ""Historically, simulations used in different fields developed largely
> >>> independently, but 20th century studies of Systems theory and
> >>> Cybernetics combined with spreading use of computers across all those
> >>> fields have led to some unification and a more systematic view of the
> >>> concept.
> >>>
> >>> Physical simulation refers to simulation in which physical objects are
> >>> substituted for the real thing (some circles[3] use the term for
> >>> computer simulations modelling selected laws of physics, but this
> >>> article doesn't). These physical objects are often chosen because they
> >>> are smaller or cheaper than the actual object or system.
> >>>
> >>> Interactive simulation is a special kind of physical simulation, often
> >>> referred to as a human in the loop simulation, in which physical
> >>> simulations include human operators, such as in a flight simulator or
> >>> a driving simulator.
> >>>
> >>> Human in the loop simulations can include a computer simulation as a
> >>> so-called synthetic environment.[4]""
> >>>
> >>> pier luigi and jennifer when they talk about "simulating the senses"
> >>> i think are within this definition of "simulation" and the general
> >>> dicussion one could have about painting and music and representation
> >>> in the arts
> >>>
> >>> so for me a picture that happens to be developed using computer
> >>> graphics is not a "simulation" in this sense but an alife program that
> >>> generates evolving life like systems ( and then you can photograph and
> >>> produce a still graphic)= the work of karl simms etc
> >>>
> >>> as mentioned in the definition above, often the aspect of
> >>> interactivity is key to creating an digitally generated experience that
> >> "simulates'
> >>> a naturally
> >>> occuring one
> >>>
> >>> so i agree= for the discussion of simulation here not to be over
> >>> general we need to distinguish clearly between simulation and
> >>> representation
> >>>
> >>> roger
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Annick Bureaud <bureaud@altern.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>>> Dear Pier Luigi, Dear All,
> >>>>
> >>>> This discussion is a bit difficult to follow for me as I don't have
> >>>> much time to read everything, so I hope that my remark will not be too
> >> trivial.
> >>>>
> >>>> For me there is a difference between simulating and representing.
> >>>>
> >>>> But one naive question : if life is simulatable (A.life), then death
> >>>> is too...
> >>>>
> >>>> Annick
> >>>>
> >>>> Pier Luigi Capucci wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dear Derek, beautiful idea that death can be something
> >> un-simulatable....
> >>>>> But, don't you think images like the following ones can represent it?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://laccarossa.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/2202la-morte-sceletro.
> >>>>> jpg
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://dimensionemorgana.ilcannocchiale.it/blogs/bloggerarchimg/dist
> >>>>> rattamentemorgana/morte.jpg
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.settemuse.it/pittori_scultori_europei/bruegel/pieter_brue
> >>>>> gel_the_elder_013_il_trionfo_della_morte_1562.jpg
> >>>>> http://www.anti-communist.net/katyn/katyn_wood_massacre.jpg
> >>>>> http://www.infopal.it/writable/img/morti%20di%20gaza.jpg
> >>>>> ...........
> >>>>> ...........
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pier Luigi
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Il giorno 21/gen/2011, alle ore 21.13, derek hales ha scritto:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> to go back to the opening question - and with apologies, when Pier
> >>>>>> first posed the question of what was un-simulatable / unsimulable,
> >>>>>> before staring the discussion - I said something like "life"...I
> >>>>>> take it all back - it is death. death cannot be simulated, perhaps
> >>>>>> the final rasping breath can - but the completion of non - sense,
> >>>>>> the utter desolation of the senses, the unconditioned, a void: this
> >>>>>> surely cannot be simulated?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> derek
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>>
> >>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>>
> >>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe
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> >>>
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> >>>
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> >>> "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>
> >> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>
> >> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
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> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>
> >> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>
> >> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to
> >> subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter
> >> e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 10:55:12 +0100
> > From: "xDxD.vs.xDxD" <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTi=aHC7LFy7awrV+3ZBMFOz0rZZCzwkFyAmtzquC@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > hello all!
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a)
> > <jenniferkanary@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> What about death in literature, death in imagination, is that a form of
> >> simulation? If imagination is a form of simulation, then the limits of the
> >> un-simulatable might be found there?
> >
> > and maybe death and after death can be imaginatively simulated, after
> > all, like in
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/2008/01/15/dead-on-second-life/
> >
> > in which 3 artificial intelligences, fed with the original texts that
> > Karl Marx, Franz Kafka and Coco Chanel left us, have been embodied in
> > autonomous avatars on Second Life (walking around, choosing who/what
> > to interact with, etc completely on their own, according to
> > behavioural algorithms built around the characters' personality).
> >
> > This is a kind of simulation that interested me a lot, as it sits
> > across the formal dimensions of systems theory and the poetical
> > re-enactment of processes (or people! :) ): while there is a formal,
> > scientific based approach in the design and definition of the systems
> > defining behaviour and expression of the re-embodied-avatars, there
> > also is the suggestion of how people never, actually, die, continuing
> > their lives in the memories, imaginaries, sensations of the people who
> > knew them (and this is actually a really complex and totally
> > insightful simulation of a human being).
> >
> > In more than one way they are completely alive, not dead, living in a
> > continuous multi-authored simulation based on the "material" (texts,
> > experiences, relationships...) that they left behind, and on a
> > multitude of interpretations.
> >
> > ciao!
> > salvatore
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:10:16 +0100
> > From: "xDxD.vs.xDxD" <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTik7ZJuT7=gYzyi-LHUPFtVPkc5Kkgnq9_eerec_@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > hello roger and all,
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 12:35 PM, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >> I would like to make the assertion that relying on digital simulations
> >> is creating
> >> a situation where we focus primarily on processes that are theoretically
> >> simulatable or computable=
> >> ?whereas there are many other processes that are just not
> >> simulatable and there is a danger that we are developing huge blind spots
> >> (similarly there are parts of the universe that are theoretically
> >> unobservable
> >> eg the interior of a black hole, or the universe further away than
> >> light could travel since the birth of the universe)
> >>
> >> the work of artists , with its emphasis on triggering subjective
> >> experience.and exploitation of phenomena that may be unsimulatable may
> >> open up interesting
> >> areas of research that computer scientists are not focused on
> >>
> >> are there any examples ?
> >
> >
> > we need cognitive scientists or/and some more anthropologists! :)
> >
> > as this is a problem that is truly similar to the international
> > discussion on "how do we go beyond ethnographical writing?"
> >
> > or: anthropological reports are an incomplete simulation. They
> > represent the point of view of the anthropologist and, in that, they
> > are, allow me to make it simple, novels. With that i do not mean that
> > they "are not good", i just mean that they are "incomplete", as we
> > know since the works of Mead and Bateson that "completeness" is a
> > concept that is somewhat awkward to define, and probabily the key to
> > describing it is to let it describe itself, by not trying to define it
> > and by finding ways in which the multiplicity of voices and
> > perceptions, and the network of relations, and their evolution in time
> > and space can express themselves. And also getting ready to accept
> > that a "system" (self-)described in this way is not coherent, static,
> > or objective. As roger said: there is not shortcut.
> >
> > yet again the most interesting parts (for me, obviously :) )of the
> > scientific research in this field are those that are creating a
> > short-circuit between "the map and the territory", by using the
> > territory (and its inhabitants, and cultures, and relations, and
> > expressions...) as the map itself through technologies that allow both
> > reading, writing and interpreting the world in its "entirety" (at
> > least theoretically, as it would require *everything/everyone* to be
> > technologically connected). In this perspective: the simulation of the
> > system is the system itself and, thus, can become simulatable.
> >
> > ciao!
> > s
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:04:50 +0100
> > From: "xDxD.vs.xDxD" <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
> > Empathy and Subjective Experience
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTi=1iEV=yHetKZJiWdcj6nBaxg6EmUU=xS0E7U5r@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > hello jennifer and everyone!
> >
> >> How our senses dance a dance of signals that triggers our neurons. If we know
> >> how it is evoked in brains with the use of technology, we will learn more
> >> about
> >> how to evoke it in computers. In particular from the view that we are all
> >> jiggling atoms ;) How to make my Avatar/Robot feel? How to put the Gaia in
> >> the
> >> world of my Avatar/Robot?
> >
> > here come some suggestions from my own practice in arts+science. hope
> > you find them interesting for your research.
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/2006/12/21/talkers-performance/
> > in the Talkers performance, the body of a dancer is connected to a
> > stimulation system that enacts a grammar made of electrical
> > stlimulation signals that are conveyed to the body of the dancer to
> > "write" on it the expressions of the audience, as sensed through a
> > series of online and live mechanisms and interfaces.
> > These mechanisms are the controls (parameters) defining the life of a
> > digital life form that expresses itself through generative language
> > and emotional expressions whose algorithms work through the realtime
> > contents of social networks. The body of the dancer becomes a
> > "display" for the simulation, re-mediating the body with the
> > digital-emotions and generative-linguistic-expressions of the digital
> > being.
> >
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/OneAvatar/
> > OneAvatar simulates the senses of an avatar on Second Life on a
> > physical human-body.
> > Created as a game in the virtual world of Second Life (and then on a
> > series of additional platforms), OneAvatar is a suit that connects the
> > body of the human to the digital-body of an avatar, allowing the human
> > to "feel" the digital-perceptions of the avatar through a series of
> > electrical and haptic stimuli.
> > OneAvatar has since become an open source platform that can be used to
> > build simulations that involve digital-life-forms and mapping them
> > onto a human body.
> > The human body becomes the medium for a simulation for researching
> > digital emotions and perceptions, as well as the cybernetic systems
> > built by interconnecting human body to digital body.
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/2008/01/15/dead-on-second-life/
> > i already mentioned Dead on Second Life in the other message, and i
> > will put it here only for the sake of completeness: famous dead human
> > beings are simulated in virtual worlds through autonomous avatars led
> > by artificial intelligence and behavioural algorithms. A scientific
> > simulation and an artistic metaphor on the continuous simulation of
> > people constantly taking place in our cognitive processes through
> > their words, images, relationships.
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/2009/12/05/conference-biofeedback/
> > Conference Biofeedback creates in real time a simple model of the
> > emotional state of the audience of a lecture, and describes it to the
> > lecturer by means of sensorial stimuli directly on his/her body.
> >
> >
> > and, by the way, here's a picture of me wearing a primordial version
> > of Conference Biofeedback for my conference at Consciousness Reframed
> > in Munich, together with Pier Luigi
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/network/artisopensource/wp-content/uploads/2009
> > /11/confbiofeedback.jpg
> > (not many electrical shocks received in that occasion :) )
> >
> > ciao!
> > s
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 17:33:03 +0200
> > From: "Avi Rosen" <avi@siglab.technion.ac.il>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: "'YASMIN DISCUSSIONS'" <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <003501cbbca5$27de0ac0$779a2040$@siglab.technion.ac.il>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Hi Salvatore!
> > I have a Vlog on YouTube, "BITS_OF_MY_LIFE" -
> > http://www.youtube.com/ephemeral8 where I document my life for the last 3
> > years.( More than 40000 video clips). It's my digital avatar located in
> > cyberspace superposition. It will remain there for an endless period of Time
> > for the future generation.
> >
> > The BITS are the MEME for further construction \deconstruction of net
> > audiovisual mutual memory sequences... It's a form of immortality :-)
> > Avi.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > [mailto:yasmin_discussions-bounces@estia.media.uoa.gr] On Behalf Of
> > xDxD.vs.xDxD
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 11:55 AM
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated Senses
> > and the Un-Simulatable
> >
> > hello all!
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a)
> > <jenniferkanary@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> What about death in literature, death in imagination, is that a form
> >> of simulation? If imagination is a form of simulation, then the limits
> >> of the un-simulatable might be found there?
> >
> > and maybe death and after death can be imaginatively simulated, after all,
> > like in
> >
> > http://www.artisopensource.net/2008/01/15/dead-on-second-life/
> >
> > in which 3 artificial intelligences, fed with the original texts that Karl
> > Marx, Franz Kafka and Coco Chanel left us, have been embodied in autonomous
> > avatars on Second Life (walking around, choosing who/what to interact with,
> > etc completely on their own, according to behavioural algorithms built
> > around the characters' personality).
> >
> > This is a kind of simulation that interested me a lot, as it sits across the
> > formal dimensions of systems theory and the poetical re-enactment of
> > processes (or people! :) ): while there is a formal, scientific based
> > approach in the design and definition of the systems defining behaviour and
> > expression of the re-embodied-avatars, there also is the suggestion of how
> > people never, actually, die, continuing their lives in the memories,
> > imaginaries, sensations of the people who knew them (and this is actually a
> > really complex and totally insightful simulation of a human being).
> >
> > In more than one way they are completely alive, not dead, living in a
> > continuous multi-authored simulation based on the "material" (texts,
> > experiences, relationships...) that they left behind, and on a multitude of
> > interpretations.
> >
> > ciao!
> > salvatore
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
> > HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
> > the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> > password in the fields found further down the page.
> >
> > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your
> > e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> > unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> >
> > HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> > Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 16:18:09 +0100
> > From: Luigi Pagliarini <luigi@artificialia.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <D15F58BE-1FF9-4DD2-8E86-7EBECAE4E384@artificialia.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> >
> > Actually the death concept is implicit in what I (personally) consider the
> > "real" simulations :-) and it is there since the first GA was coded
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:32:55 +0100
> > From: Ziva Ljubec <ziva.ljubec@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 102,
> > Issue 1
> > To: yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTi=ua4p4zDQ+7YamOcdPMFr1Xqy+gV7scZBMfMKB@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> > Dear Natasha, Jennifer, Simon and other Yasminers,
> >
> > we seem to be recognising empathy as that other non algorithmic
> > approach to simulating the ''unsimulatable''. Empathy, sympathy,
> > instincts and intuition are much broader venues of knowledge than pure
> > abstract, symbolic and conceptual intellect, but we seem to be
> > clueless how to access this absolute knowledge at will. Roger proposed
> > the enaction model of cognition, which might guide us towards
> > simulating the algorithmically irreducible procesess. Here is a
> > simplified chart of how enaction model differs from other cognitive
> > models:
> >
> > http://www.enolagaia.com/ECSTables.html
> >
> > Reading just the enaction coloumn there is evident trace of bergsonism
> > present:
> > METAPHOR FOR MIND:
> > Inseparable from experience and world
> > METAPHOR FOR COGNITION:
> > Ongoing interaction within the medium
> > THE WORLD IN RELATION TO US:
> > Engaged, brought forth, presentable through action
> > MIND VS. WORLD:
> > Inseparable mind and world enacted in history of interactions
> >
> > I must share this brilliant example of knowing from within and from
> > without (although it is quite cruel example I must warn you) that
> > demonstrates the capacity of simulation that leads to efficient
> > action, that perhaps in a way simulates through enaction:
> >
> > ... from Bergson, Creative Evolution, 1911
> >
> > ''Different species of hymenoptera that have a paralyzing instinct lay
> > their eggs in spiders, beetles or caterpillars, which having first
> > been subjected by the wasp to a skilfull surgical operation will go on
> > motionless for a certain number of days, and thus provide the larvae
> > with fresh meat.
> > In the sting which they give to the nerve-centres of their victim, in
> > order to destroy their power of moving without killing it, these
> > different species of hymenoptera take into accout, so to speak, the
> > different species of prey they respectively attack.''
> >
> > ''Compare the ammophila with the entomologist, who knows the
> > caterpillar as he knows everything else ? from the outside, and
> > without having on its part a special or vital interest.
> > The ammophilia must learn, one by one, like the entomologist, the
> > positions of the nerve centers of the caterpillar, must acquire at
> > least practical knowledge of these positions by trying the effects of
> > its sting.
> > But there is no need for such a view if we suppose sympathy between
> > the ammophila and its victim, which teaches it from within, so to say,
> > concerning the vulnerability of the caterpillar.
> > This feeling of the vulnerability might owe nothing to outward
> > perception, but results from the mere presence together of the
> > ammophila and the caterpillar, considered no longer as two organisms,
> > but as two activities. It would express a relation of the one to the other.
> > Certainly, a scientific theory cannot appeal to considerations of this
> > kind. It must not put action before organisation, sympathy before
> > perception and knowledge.''
> >
> > Ziva Ljubec
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 10
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:45:01 -0200
> > From: Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida <almeida.clarissa@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
> > Empathy and Subjective Experience
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTi=VXhyBko5gmTt=gGauBWTy5J4QfdfxVo9Cia+o@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> > A pocket post (or just a meditation):
> >
> >
> >
> > Starting from the serene considerations of Simon Biggs about the simulation
> > of mind, I want to recall my first post. I used the short/pocket tale around
> > scales, realities/worlds, perspectives? as an artifice to thing about
> > multilevel, many worlds, super complex contexts. Contexts like this, and as
> > Simon remembered it is the same concerning human mind, are unsimulatable. We
> > can only simulate what we simplify, the things/ideas we isolate, mutilate,
> > extract from its natural, intrinsic, complexity. To simulate is just an
> > exercise we realize in order to understand. Simulating/simplifying we can
> > communicate, explain in congress and symposiums and lectures and? we can
> > share. Simulation is invention and is translation and is becoming. The
> > simulated, is an emergence from our random conversations, interactions,
> > transactions. Not alone, we all together ? the humans and the ants and the
> > food and the plants; the sun and beyond; the radio waves? we simulate to
> > make the invisible, visible, giving this visible, several names ? waves and
> > particles and molecules and atoms and feelings and hormones and ideas. But,
> > despite it is super simple and evident, we love discussing to understand
> > ourselves as processes, open systems in system's pools, learning how to feel
> > comfortable with the idea we just collectively invented this marvelous
> > simulated real.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Clarissa
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2011/1/24 Simon Biggs <simon@littlepig.org.uk>
> >
> >> Empathy would seem to involve one mind appreciating, by some means, the
> >> state of another mind. As yet no meaningful or useful definition of mind,
> >> or
> >> explication of how it comes to be, has been put forward so we are
> >> discussing
> >> something we know very little about. The mind, in the sense of a conscious
> >> being's sense of self, might not even exist, or at least not in the sense
> >> we
> >> appreciate it. Computers, on the other hand, clearly do not have a mind.
> >> They are computational machines, not beings.
> >>
> >> Whilst there seems to be a connection between mind and thought, the ability
> >> to compute and process information, it isn't necessary for an individual to
> >> have a higher level of intelligence to possess a mind, although
> >> intelligence
> >> and mind appear interdependent. Humans and most animals, even some
> >> organisms
> >> with minimal neural capacity, exhibit the properties associated with having
> >> a mind. This allows us to feel empathy with a small bird dying in our hand,
> >> even a fish caught in a net, but little empathy for a carrot that has just
> >> been pulled from the ground. That said, it is possible to feel empathy for
> >> a
> >> tree that has been injured. Where is the difference here? Where is the line
> >> between us projecting our sense of self onto the other (anthropomorphising
> >> a
> >> tree, for example) and our sense of an actual other, perceiving its
> >> subjective state in some way? If we knew the answer to this question, the
> >> difference between objects and subjects, then perhaps we could simulate
> >> mind
> >> and create a conscious machine.
> >>
> >> One thing I would be pretty confident of is that the mind is only partially
> >> dependent on the brain and other elements of the organism it is associated
> >> with. Mind seems as much emergent from and interactive with non-biological
> >> factors, such as social and physical space. In this respect mind is
> >> determined as much by our social relations, as expressed through language
> >> or
> >> the normalisation and negotiation of individual and collective behaviour,
> >> as the neural tissue in our heads. We would be wise to keep the ideas and
> >> practices emergent from the work of Freud, Merleau-Ponty and Levi-Strauss
> >> at
> >> the centre of any discussion on this subject. However, what is clear is
> >> that
> >> until we do understand what mind is we will not be able to simulate it. I
> >> wonder if we will ever achieve that understanding. Most of the time I doubt
> >> we will. When I do think we will I'm pretty quick to discount my hubris.
> >>
> >> I would propose that our understanding of ourselves, of the world around
> >> us,
> >> remains very limited. As a consequence of our limited knowledge I would
> >> argue that to date most things remain beyond our capacity to simulate them.
> >> To claim we do have the capacity to simulate things is to assume we have
> >> knowledge of them we most likely do not possess. This would seem arrogant
> >> in
> >> the extreme. Further to this, a simulation is only a knowledge modelling
> >> activity. Even where we do have enough information about something to build
> >> what seems to be a useful and functional simulation it does not mean we
> >> have
> >> made an accurate copy of something. It is only as accurate as we are able
> >> to
> >> test its accuracy and that testing is constrained by what we know. Even the
> >> best simulations are likely to be incomplete or even erroneous in their
> >> conception. To assume otherwise is to consider oneself to have complete and
> >> irrefutable knowledge of something. That does not seem like good
> >> (sceptical)
> >> science or philosophy. It starts to sound like arrogant dogma.
> >>
> >> Best
> >>
> >> Simon
> >>
> >>
> >> On 23/01/2011 17:43, "Jennifer Kanary Nikolov(a)" <
> >> jenniferkanary@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear All,
> >>>
> >>> In the meantime, I apologise if my own posts have actually contributed to
> >> the
> >>> rise to confusion :) Here is a post about the simulation of subjective
> >>> experience. Its in addition to my previous posts.
> >>>
> >>> Like I stated before, I'm interested in the Simulation of Empathy, well
> >> known
> >>> in
> >>> humans, but considered impossible in computers (for AI purposes). Empathy
> >>> being
> >>> the mental simulation of the experience of the other. When we know how
> >> our own
> >>> empathy systems work, and what role our own senses play in this, we might
> >>> learn
> >>> more about how this could be evoked in digital systems, AI and Robotics.
> >> This
> >>> is
> >>> strongly related to the theory of mirror neurons (it is also where we
> >> left off
> >>> at the last discussion with Derrick De Kerckhoves contribution). I am
> >>> interested
> >>> in how artists knowledge about how to evoke subjective experiences in
> >> humans
> >>> could contribute to our understanding as to how to evoke such
> >> experiences in
> >>> AI
> >>> systems and robotics. I'm interested in the role art experiences play in
> >>> evoking
> >>> empathy, how it jiggles our neurons and is there a form of
> >> programmability to
> >>> this?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For one to experience empathy, to have a sense as to what the other is
> >>> feeling,
> >>> one must have an idea or awareness that there is an other and one must
> >> have an
> >>> inner archive of subjective experiences and believe that the other feels.
> >> I
> >>> use
> >>> the word subjective experience to separate the subjective aspect of a
> >>> sensation,
> >>> a signal of the sense organ, and its emotional affect. I experience a
> >> signal,
> >>> I
> >>> experience the signal as pain, I experience fear. A digital system can
> >> sense
> >>> the
> >>> signal, but as far as we know, does not have a sensation about this
> >> signal,
> >>> not
> >>> does it compare it to our signals.
> >>>
> >>> Some believe that it is impossible for AI to feel, subjective experience
> >> is
> >>> ambiguous and ambiguity causes error in a computers calculations. Some
> >> believe
> >>> that subjective experience comes from a heart and soul, and that
> >> computers do
> >>> not have a soul and thus can never experience subjectivity. As an artist
> >>> interested in scientific speculations I wonder how to change our
> >> perspective
> >>> in
> >>> this thinking. This changes dramatically when scientific speculations
> >> rise
> >>> like
> >>> The Universe is a Quantum Computer. In such a world Simulation is Life.
> >> We are
> >>> Avatars creating Avatars. We are Worlds creating Worlds. The Simulated
> >>> Simulate
> >>> in an ongoing cycle of many layers. It gives a whole new meaning to
> >> concepts
> >>> of
> >>> God as a Creator, God residing in All of us, God made man in his own
> >> image.
> >>> It
> >>> is a very cybernetic approach, that everything is computed.
> >>>
> >>> For me Simulation is Computation, be it by my brain, by a digital or
> >> analogue
> >>> or
> >>> quantum computer. I'm interested in how technology and art are used as a
> >> tools
> >>> of empathy. I am interested in how subjective experience is generated
> >> by all
> >>> technologies. I'm interested in how qbits might solve the issue of
> >> ambiguation
> >>> causing error in computations of classical computers.
> >>>
> >>> Our senses play a big role in how we empathise. We sense muscles
> >> tensions in
> >>> the faces of others, we learn to 'read' such faces and make conclusions
> >> about
> >>> how the other is feeling, we compare it to how we feel when our muscles
> >> are
> >>> like
> >>> that. In our current society we do not take several of our senses
> >> seriously.
> >>> We
> >>> need to focus on how our all our senses can be simulated with digital
> >>> computers
> >>> and how the data, the incoming signals of sensors interfere and affect
> >>> interpretation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> How our senses dance a dance of signals that triggers our neurons. If we
> >> know
> >>> how it is evoked in brains with the use of technology, we will learn more
> >>> about
> >>> how to evoke it in computers. In particular from the view that we are all
> >>> jiggling atoms ;) How to make my Avatar/Robot feel? How to put the Gaia
> >> in the
> >>> world of my Avatar/Robot?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jennifer
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >>> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >>> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>>
> >>> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>>
> >>> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> >> In
> >>> the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> >>> password in the fields found further down the page.
> >>>
> >>> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> >> your
> >>> e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> >>> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> >>>
> >>> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> >> Digest
> >>> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Simon Biggs
> >> simon@littlepig.org.uk
> >> http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
> >>
> >> s.biggs@eca.ac.uk
> >> http://www.elmcip.net/
> >> http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> >> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> >> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >>
> >> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >>
> >> HOW TO SUBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to.
> >> In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> >> password in the fields found further down the page.
> >>
> >> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> >> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the
> >> unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> >>
> >> HOW TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> >> Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 11
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 14:48:03 -0200
> > From: Clarissa Ribeiro Pereira de Almeida <almeida.clarissa@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTimMzpnjj+f3-3hX6_s4CFMqj0B2k1_H8_QJWpr6@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> > Man-Machine (or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T65NpyfPkQ)
> >
> >
> > And we cannot forget the creation/simulation of reality depends on previous
> > simulations/super-extension of our senses we made. Here, the amazing and
> > powerful "*Thermo Quantum Discovery* LC/MS/MS System" - the most robust and
> > sensitive triple quadrupole in its class:
> >
> > http://www.ietltd.com/inventory.jsp?id=944
> >
> >
> >
> > It is interesting as well, to take a look in the inventory available at the
> > ?International Equipament Tranding? website:
> >
> > http://www.ietltd.com/inventory.jsp
> >
> >
> >
> > The super-machines can "help" in to run "small sacale simulations" and think
> > about, for instance, ?Adiabatic quantum optimization?:
> >
> > http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.2782
> >
> >
> >
> > And we can discuss everything in a realm where ?all is composed of
> > references with no referents?, a hyperreality:
> >
> > http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/06/magic-quantum-wand-does-not-vanish
> > -hard-maths.ars
> >
> > Here, there and everywhere?
> >
> >
> >
> > Clarissa
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2011/1/25 xDxD.vs.xDxD <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
> >
> >> hello roger and all,
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 12:35 PM, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>> I would like to make the assertion that relying on digital simulations
> >>> is creating
> >>> a situation where we focus primarily on processes that are theoretically
> >>> simulatable or computable=
> >>> whereas there are many other processes that are just not
> >>> simulatable and there is a danger that we are developing huge blind spots
> >>> (similarly there are parts of the universe that are theoretically
> >> unobservable
> >>> eg the interior of a black hole, or the universe further away than
> >>> light could travel since the birth of the universe)
> >>>
> >>> the work of artists , with its emphasis on triggering subjective
> >>> experience.and exploitation of phenomena that may be unsimulatable may
> >>> open up interesting
> >>> areas of research that computer scientists are not focused on
> >>>
> >>> are there any examples ?
> >>
> >>
> >> we need cognitive scientists or/and some more anthropologists! :)
> >>
> >> as this is a problem that is truly similar to the international
> >> discussion on "how do we go beyond ethnographical writing?"
> >>
> >> or: anthropological reports are an incomplete simulation. They
> >> represent the point of view of the anthropologist and, in that, they
> >> are, allow me to make it simple, novels. With that i do not mean that
> >> they "are not good", i just mean that they are "incomplete", as we
> >> know since the works of Mead and Bateson that "completeness" is a
> >> concept that is somewhat awkward to define, and probabily the key to
> >> describing it is to let it describe itself, by not trying to define it
> >> and by finding ways in which the multiplicity of voices and
> >> perceptions, and the network of relations, and their evolution in time
> >> and space can express themselves. And also getting ready to accept
> >> that a "system" (self-)described in this way is not coherent, static,
> >> or objective. As roger said: there is not shortcut.
> >>
> >> yet again the most interesting parts (for me, obviously :) )of the
> >> scientific research in this field are those that are creating a
> >> short-circuit between "the map and the territory", by using the
> >> territory (and its inhabitants, and cultures, and relations, and
> >> expressions...) as the map itself through technologies that allow both
> >> reading, writing and interpreting the world in its "entirety" (at
> >> least theoretically, as it would require *everything/everyone* to be
> >> technologically connected). In this perspective: the simulation of the
> >> system is the system itself and, thus, can become simulatable.
> >>
> >> ciao!
> >> s
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
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> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 12
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:04:49 -0500
> > From: Joshua Madara <jamadara@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulating
> > Empathyand Subjective Experience
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTikcWqk5j_=e4y+Q_+DgDGL4qG+26UitYft6v3KU@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > I suppose the difficulty with externalizing subjective experience
> > (i.e. re/constructing it within an artifact) is like how it is
> > difficult to show that God is on the inside. Alan Watts cut into an
> > apple to show his children that God is on the inside, and showed that
> > every time you cut into another piece of apple, you just see more of
> > its outside (i.e. one cannot reach God through analysis). If we could
> > access subjective experience by any way other than directly
> > experiencing it, would it not cease being subjective? We can talk
> > about it, we can measure its correlations (e.g. EEG activity), but
> > words and electrical signals are not subjective experiences.
> >
> > It is comparatively easy to simulate emotion in artifacts. Maturana
> > said that an automobile has emotion. "You put it in first gear and you
> > have a powerful car. You say, 'Look how powerful this car is in
> > first!' It's aggressive, because when you scarcely touch the
> > accelerator, vrrooom! It takes off!" But isn't that metaphorical, we
> > ask? "To a certain extent, but more than metaphorical it is
> > 'isophorical,' that is, it refers to something in the same class. You
> > put the car in fifth and you travel at a higher speed, and the car is
> > peaceful, fluid, serene. What is happening there? Each time you change
> > gears, you change the internal configuration of the automobile and it
> > does different things. Emotions correspond precisely to that, from the
> > biological perspective they are internal changes in configuration that
> > transform the reactivity of the living being, such that the living
> > being in the relational space is different."
> > (http://www.tierramerica.info/2000/1126/questions.html)
> >
> > Note the role of the observer in attributing emotion to the
> > automobile. The same happens with empathy. When we observe a mother
> > bear become "angry" when a foreign agent approaches near to her child,
> > we do not (cannot?) know for certain that she actually feels anger. We
> > infer that she does when she expresses in a way that we recognize as
> > homomorphic with our own expressions when we feel anger. (The
> > "inference" may not be logical, but a simpler computation of
> > difference.) Ditto for how we respond to Johnny 5, WALL-E, etc.
> >
> > Empathy requires the ability to model another's emotional state (here
> > I do not mean "model" in the sense of an imaginative construct, but in
> > the Conant-Ashby sense, as a homomorphism), and I do not suppose that
> > requires understanding (as humans acquire through language and
> > complex, imaginative models) nor personhood (although it may approach
> > personhood especially as it develops or is developed to respond to
> > persons). Here are two projects using computers that detect human
> > emotional states and respond accordingly -- note that they are both
> > attempts at understanding and personhood:
> >
> > 1. Cambridge Ideas - The Emotional Computer
> > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whCJ4NLUSB8)
> >
> > 2. The New Face of Autism Therapy
> > (http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-05/humanoid-robots-are-new-therapi
> > sts)
> >
> > Aside: Do Animals Feel Empathy?
> > (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-animals-feel-empathy)
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Joshua
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha@natasha.cc>
> > wrote:
> >> Hi Jennifer,
> >>
> >> You wrote:
> >>
> >>> In the meantime, I apologies if my own posts have actually contributed to
> >> the rise to
> >>> confusion :) Here is a post about the simulation of subjective experience.
> >> Its in
> >>> addition to my previous posts.
> >>
> >> You are not confusing things Jennifer. I think it is how we want to talk
> >> about simulation and your interest appears to be of simulation as having
> >> potential in computational systems, which is timely, although I'm not a
> >> religious person so I don't see it pertainint to God, but I do see it as
> >> pertaining to we are all part of an evolving cybernetics.
> >>
> >>> Like I stated before, I'm interested in the Simulation of Empathy, well
> >> known in humans,
> >>> but considered impossible in computers (for AI purposes). Empathy being the
> >> mental
> >>> simulation of the experience of the other.
> >>
> >> Empathy may be the most needed and also the most difficult experiential
> >> behavior to obtain. ?To have empathy an agent needs to understand the
> >> thoughts, feelings and state of another agent/person. ?To have empathy then,
> >> the agent would also have to have "personhood." ?So, what is personhood if
> >> it is not to be alive, self-awareness, and able to make decisions. How can
> >> something make decisions if it is not alive and self-aware? ?Certainly AI
> >> makes decisions and interacts with its environment, but not alive. So the
> >> issue is what makes AI alive?
> >>
> >>> Some believe that it is impossible for AI to feel, subjective experience is
> >> ambiguous and
> >>> ambiguity causes error in a computers calculations. Some believe that
> >> subjective experience
> >>> comes from a heart and soul, and that computers do not have a soul and thus
> >> can never
> >>> experience subjectivity.
> >>
> >> AI is narrow. ?"Strong AI" is where we would have to begin, and which takes
> >> us to the baby steps of A[G]I (i.e., artificial general intelligence,
> >> hereinafter "AGI"), which is where AI was originally headed before its
> >> winter (inability to achieve its original directive in producing human level
> >> intelligence). ?AGI offers the potential for being self-aware and able to
> >> make decisions based on "experience". ?Through its experience in its
> >> learning, it could obtain personhood at the juncture where the idea of life
> >> and death becomes redefined based on semi and non-biological or synthetic
> >> systems which develop self-awareness and may want rights, similar to the
> >> rights of humans.
> >>
> >> With all this said, the issue of empathy could be obtainable by AGIs. ?But I
> >> have to return to my original post on this one, if I may. ?A brain that is
> >> transferable or copied onto a computational system, would also transfer or
> >> copy its mind (in the material sense) and that mind would contain the
> >> feelings, emotions, and sensorial memory of the biological person). ?If the
> >> AGI could relate to this, it would also become familiar and experience the
> >> feelings, emotions and sensory memory of the human. ?So the merging of
> >> humans and technology becomes even more blurred and the AGI would learn
> >> empathy through its own experiential behavior.
> >>
> >> All my best,
> >> Natasha
> >>
> >> Natasha Vita-More
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 13
> > Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 00:17:21 +0000
> > From: V?tor Reia-Baptista <vreia@ualg.pt>
> > Subject: [Yasmin_discussions] Some other contributes to the
> > Discussions Around Simulation II
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <20110126001721.99964000f4t29xk4@wmail.ualg.pt>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
> > format="flowed"
> >
> > Hi.
> > One of the most interesting texts that I?ve read touching this subject
> > (still considering the specific aspect of representation and simulated
> > representation) is Umberto Eco?s ?Travels in Hyperreality?. Of
> > course, we have to remember that this text was written in 1975, thus,
> > much earlier than everybody was using terms like ?hypertexts?,
> > ?virtual reality? or ?cyberspace?, at least in the sense that we are
> > giving to them today as given elements of simulation of a ?real?
> > ?second life?. In this text Eco identified the world of ?Hyperreality?
> > as the world of ?Absolute Fakes?, but in a way that made the faking
> > mechanisms, imitations or simulations, not merely reproduce reality,
> > but eventually improve it. He illustrates this aspect with the
> > examples of the faked Disney Worlds, where real life elements like
> > cities, streets and houses (castles and alike) would offer the perfect
> > environments for different lifelike figures to play real lifelike
> > stories. Once inside those stories everybody would be able to live, or
> > to simulate living (which in that context would mean the same),
> > different actions obtaining different feelings and different states of
> > mind that would be rather hard to get without those simulation
> > environments.
> > I think that this example given by Eco (but we could in fact be
> > speaking of many fiction films, cartoons or videogames) help us to
> > understand at least part of the problem: we need to reproduce
> > different environments and different actions for many different
> > purposes, from pure entertainment to strict scientific aims, but we
> > should also remain aware of some words said by Eco about these
> > processes being generally ?an allegory of the consumer society, a
> > place of absolute iconicism? where the simulation environment ?is also
> > as place of total passivity? and ?its visitors must agree to behave
> > like robots?.
> > This bring us back to the worries of Baudrillard, that I?ve mentioned
> > already in a former post, showing that many of the possible simulation
> > situations that we share, in fact, today are many times signs of other
> > states of alienation, either in real life situations, or in controlled
> > laboratory situations.
> > These were only some loose thoughts that I tried to put together
> > aiming to come closer to a more analytical approach within the
> > discussions, but after reading them now, I can hardly agree that they
> > contribute to that purpose at all.
> > Best wishes to you all.
> > V?tor
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 14
> > Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 04:11:52 +0100
> > From: Luigi Pagliarini <luigi@artificialia.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Yasmin_discussions] Around Simulation II - Simulated
> > Senses and the Un-Simulatable
> > To: YASMIN DISCUSSIONS <yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr>
> > Message-ID: <35ABA5B7-7572-414F-B1A9-6EB6698D5E87@artificialia.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> >
> >> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 12:35 PM, roger malina <rmalina@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >>> I would like to make the assertion that relying on digital simulations
> >>> is creating
> >>> a situation where we focus primarily on processes that are theoretically
> >>> simulatable or computable=
> >>> whereas there are many other processes that are just not
> >>> simulatable and there is a danger that we are developing huge blind spots
> >>> (similarly there are parts of the universe that are theoretically
> >>> unobservable
> >>> eg the interior of a black hole, or the universe further away than
> >>> light could travel since the birth of the universe)
> >>>
> >>> the work of artists , with its emphasis on triggering subjective
> >>> experience.and exploitation of phenomena that may be unsimulatable may
> >>> open up interesting
> >>> areas of research that computer scientists are not focused on
> >>>
> >>> are there any examples ?
> >
> >
> > it is a strange question!
> > not to be self-referential but.. maybe these examples?
> > http://www.artificialia.com/intelligenza/
> > http://www.artificialia.com/CG/english.html
> > http://www.artificialia.com/AoD/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> >
> > End of Yasmin_discussions Digest, Vol 103, Issue 1
> > **************************************************
>
>
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